First Official Tournament

Well, the Westerners finally had their first official tournament for Monster. It was really quite fun, and thanks goes to AyaImmortal for running it. I'm still a little disappointed with the turnout, though.

14 players entered:
4649(ChibitaJr), BoringRyu, Harem, Hotaro, KenjiX, Khris, L3land, RushedDown, Rogueyoshi, TL_Crow, Turbovec, Xiii, ZKD, and myself.

Results were:
1st : Xenozip. (Ryougen, Orju)
2nd : Rogueyoshi (Siely)
3rd : L3land (Delga)
4th : Xiii (Aleks)
Tied for 5th : Turbovec (Othello), BoringRyu (Katze)
Tied for 7th : Rushed Down (Siely), Khris (Katze, Ryougen)
Tied for 9th : Harem (Katze), Hitaro (Rail, Ryougen), KenjiX (Aleks, Ryougen)
Tied for 11th : ZKD (Aleks), TL_Crow (Delga, Ryougen), 4649(ChibitaJr) (Siely)

Thanks very much goes to BoringRyu for this list.

You can see the brackets here: Brackets.

You'll notice that the brackets were set up kind of funky, so some players got byes. The seeding wasn't too bad, but I'd have personally done it a little differently, though I suppose it did work out in the end. Also you'll notice I whored the top tier Ryougen again, but at least I used Orju for the Grand Finals.

You may also notice a few names missing. We definitely missed some players for this tournament: ace_uno, Angry Lobster, Dandy J, Darkhonor, fooligar, Krost, Roadapple, Rioting Soul, Spooty, Smacks, and XAQshinor.

We had some very interesting play from rogueyoshi who showed why T-Siely is so much better than F-Siely. I got sent to losers by it, and it was a very very close match between rogue and I for the finals. We also got to see why Delga can be such a force (which I'll talk about later) from L3land. Xiii was also able to show that Aleksander can contend by getting 4th place, which is awesome. Overall I'd say it was a good tournament, but I really wish the other previously-mentioned players had entered.

I've collected all the replays from the tournament which you can download here: replays. I'd say this replay-collection went way better than the first time, we're only missing 2 replays from the entire tournament, which is awesome.

Anywhoo, I'll talk more about the tournament and the players that entered later in another post. Right now it's time to talk about Delga and throw trap mechanics (brace yourself).

In order to understand this next stuff you have to be a little familiar with the concept of possibilities (or potentiality). It's not too difficult of a concept if you look at the game Rock-Paper-Scissors. SF3:3rd players should be very familiar with the concept.

In most fighting games the throw trap system really does work like R-P-S where there's a 33/33/33 chance of success and failure, and sometimes in games like SF3 there's more of a 25/25/25/25 chance because you have other variables. Most games though, the defender has three options: Block, Avoid, Attack. And in these games the grappler has three options: Attack, Throw, Block.

I'm totally going to dumb it down as much as possible for the sake of giving an example:

Block Avoid Attack
Attack - O O
Throw O X X
Block - + -


What this chart is showing is the grappler on the left, and the defender on the top. Assuming the grappler has frame advantage, this is all the actions that could normally take place and what results they could have depending on what action the opponent takes -- fairly simple. For example, if the grappler attempts a throw and the defender attempts a block the result is O (success) in favor of the grappler. If the grappler sticks out a throw and the defender sticks out an attack then it ends in X (failure) for the grappler. And if the grappler blocks but the defender avoids then it ends in a + (advantageous) situation for the grappler because blocking can't be punished by avoiding, but avoiding can potentially be punished by blocking -- since empty blocking isn't really an action. Then if both players block nothing really happens.

This chart shows why you see people getting hit by Chun-Li's throw in SF3:3S over and over again. Blocking breaks even with Chun's primary options and only loses to the throw which causes minor damage and resets the situation, but your other options are vulnerable to getting hit which is not something you want when Chun is stocked. Again, this is totally dumbed down because most games have other functions (like parrying or short jumping or whatever).

But now we take a look at Delga's command throw and why it dumbs this down even further. Delga's command grab has full body invulnerability until the grab frames are active, and the reach is quite huge. Not only is the reach rather large, but it actually will "catch" any grounded hitbox or hittable-box that is vertically aligned to Delga's hand.

This means that there is not a single grounded action that will beat Delga's command throw. No attacks, no matter how fast, will beat it because they do not avoid the grab and the grab can not be beaten before the grab occurs.

The only way to really punish the action of Delga's grab is to short jump (instant double jump: 9,9) and hit him with an air chain into ground combo. If you hit Delga with an instant air attack on the way up from a normal jump then you're only getting minor damage. If you do a normal jump and attack on the way down, then again you're only getting minor damage because you can only hit him just before he recovers, and at that point you'll be too high in the air to do any real follow-ups.

So your options are jump or not. However, double jumps are slow enough that if Delga chooses, he can punish this action with an A or B attack just as you're leaving the ground and combo you after hitting you out of the air

So here we have:

Double JumpDon't Jump
(Any Action)
ThrowXO
AttackOX


All the other actions that Delga can do such as jumping or backdashing put him at a neutral in the situation, it may be advantageous or disadvantageous but it doesn't directly beat or lose to the opponent's actions either. And, there's really no immediate threat that the opponent can cause due to the invulnerability frames of the command throw and the fact that the opponents options are so limited. There's really absolutely no reason for Delga to block in this situation at all (or do anything other than take one of those two actions). Likewise the defender may be able to backdash, but not everyone has a backdash that takes them out of Delga's throw range. And for the characters that do, backdashing puts the defender outside of range (if the Delga player does the throw at the correct distance) which again neutralizes the situation -- though it's disadvantageous for the defender because they are backing themselves into the corner.

And yes, it really is that simplified. Your only options are to avoid it or get hit by it -- and the best way to avoid it is to put yourself in a position where you can get hit if Delga guesses right. But Delga's two options both lead to damage, and one of them is not likely to be punished if he guesses wrong.

If Delga guesses right with either of his two options, he gets large damage (huge reward). If Delga guesses wrong he's only punished for it if the opponent double jumps and combos, not if the opponent takes any other action. This means that Delga is 50/50 -- not 33/33/33 or 25/25/25/25, etc.

However, I could go into the intricacies on what occurs with other throw traps such as Makoto in SF3 or Potemkin in Guilty Gear for quite some time, because the defender has a lot more options and the grappler has to choose from a larger tree of options in order to counter all the possibilities.

In other words, it'd be a much much much larger cross-chart than the one I drew up for Delga. Thus, Delga's command throw is "retarded".



- Copyright © Xenozip.

1 comment:

rogueyoshi said...

heh, i think t siely is better because f siely gets owned by just about any tranq character, because they can escape her traps with no guessing required. m siely is just a gimmick.